Episode #153

From Organic Farming to SEO: Greg Heilers Impressive Journey

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Show notes

# Episode Packaging: Greg Heilers
Generated: April 6, 2026
Channel: Authority in the Wild

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Core Message

A man who chose a woman over a culinary career in Rome ended up building a 500-client SEO agency from China, and the real story is what nobody tells you about the decade in between.

Strangers Hook

"Someone who has never heard of me or Greg Heilers will click because they want to know how a person with zero business background ended up running a respected agency from inside China while the entire SEO industry was collapsing around him."

Pre-Title Audit

Bread/Honey: Strong bread. The love-over-career story is universally relatable. The SEO industry collapse has a niche hook, but the frame of "business surviving disruption" and "building from scratch in a foreign country" are broad human stories. Score: 8/10 broad.
Cozy Viewer: Entertainment. This is a life story with career stakes, not a tutorial. The viewer comes for the human drama, not to learn SEO tactics.
Curiosity Gap: Strong. The surface story (chose Beijing for love) immediately raises questions: What happened next? Did the relationship survive? How did he end up in business? Why is he still in China 11 years later? The gap opens immediately and stays open.
Vibe: Netflix. The mix of romantic decision, foreign country, industry collapse, and rebuilt career feels like a documentary. Not taxes.

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Episode Description (Short - All Platforms)

Greg Heilers was 10 days into a relationship when he turned down a culinary internship in Rome and moved to Beijing. He had no business background, no plan, and no idea what came next.

Eleven years later, he is co-founder of Jolly SEO, an agency with over 500 clients. But the path from that single decision to where he is now is nothing like the version entrepreneurs usually tell.

In this episode, Greg talks about the emotional cost of the nomad life, what it actually feels like to build a company when most of your conversations are about problems, how Reddit and AI destroyed an entire corner of the SEO industry overnight, and what he would do if his business disappeared tomorrow.

He also lives in a city of 10 million people in China that most Westerners have never heard of. And his take on what life there is actually like will surprise you.

This is a conversation about building something real when nothing goes according to plan.

YouTube Description (Full)

Greg Heilers turned down a culinary internship in Rome after 10 days together with the woman who would become his wife. He moved to Beijing with no job, no business background, and no plan. Eleven years later, he is co-founder of Jolly SEO, an agency that has served over 500 clients and built its reputation on earned media and white-hat link building.

But the version Greg tells is not the one you usually hear from agency founders.

In this episode:
- Why he chose Beijing over Rome (and why he says it was a genuinely hard call, not a romantic slam dunk)
- The emotional reality of the nomad life, and the moment it stopped feeling free
- How he accidentally fell into SEO by editing content for Chinese companies as a cultural translator
- The Reddit-Google deal that killed an entire cottage industry overnight, and what SEOs did next
- Why he stopped arguing against black hat SEO and what he thinks about it now
- What Wednesday mornings mean to him, and why he protects that time
- The honest version of what running an agency looks like when most of your week is spent solving problems
- What he would do if Jolly SEO disappeared tomorrow
- What life in China is actually like for a foreigner in 2026

Greg is not polished. He admits mistakes, acknowledges the gaps in his knowledge, and talks about business the way it actually feels rather than the way founders post about it on LinkedIn. That is what makes this conversation worth your time.

If you want to build authority through earned media and do not know where to start, Greg gives you a specific first step anyone can take today with no budget required.

Connect with Greg:
- LinkedIn: Greg Heilers
- Website: jollyseo.com
- Podcast: Jolly SEO Podcast on YouTube

Connect with Gabe:
- Newsletter: [link]
- LinkedIn: Gabe Marusca

Timestamps:
00:00 Choosing Beijing over Rome
01:50 Leaving the Nomad Life
05:10 Culture Shock in China
07:30 Falling into SEO
11:00 White Hat vs Black Hat
14:20 AI Reshaping Search
20:20 Time Blocking for Building
24:00 Problem Solving Reality
29:00 If The Business Vanished
32:30 China Opportunity And Safety
39:30 Earned Media First Steps
41:30 EEAT Explained Simply
46:00 Connect with Greg Heilers

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Titles + Thumbnail Pairings (10 Titles x 3 Thumbnails Each)

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Title 1: "He Chose Her Over Rome. Then Built This." (Score: 4/5) <- RECOMMENDED

Formula: Transformation + Specificity
Strangers: Pass | Curiosity: Pass | Cozy: Pass | Bread: Pass | Specific: Fail (slightly vague on "this")

Note: "Built This" works as curiosity gap but could be more specific. Strong emotional hook. Recommended because the romantic decision is the most universally clickable moment in the episode.

Thumbnail A: Shocked Face + Location Text
Layout: Face + Reaction
Text overlay (add manually): "ROME vs BEIJING"
Emotion: Disbelief / conflict
Visual: Greg with wide eyes or surprised expression, clean dark background, two city labels as contrast
Why: The contrast between Rome (dream) and Beijing (unknown) creates immediate stakes without explaining the outcome.

AI Prompt (ChatGPT / Gemini):
"""
Use the uploaded reference photo for the subject's face, hair, and skin tone. Preserve their likeness accurately. Create a YouTube thumbnail showing a man with a conflicted, wide-eyed expression, as if he has just made a decision that surprises even himself. The background should be split: one side warm golden tones suggesting Italy (soft blurred architecture), the other side cooler blue-grey tones suggesting an Asian city at night. Clean split design. Cinematic lighting. DO NOT include any text, logos, watermarks, or overlays. 16:9 aspect ratio. High contrast, readable at small thumbnail size.
"""

Thumbnail B: Before-After Split
Layout: Before-After Split
Text overlay (add manually): "10 DAYS"
Emotion: Surprise
Visual: Left side: rustic Italian kitchen / pasta imagery (warm, inviting). Right side: Greg looking confident in an office or city setting. Split down the center.
Why: Visually tells the story of the decision without words. "10 DAYS" adds the time detail that makes the stakes feel real.

AI Prompt (ChatGPT / Gemini):
"""
Use the uploaded reference photo for the subject's face, hair, and skin tone. Preserve their likeness accurately. Create a YouTube thumbnail with a vertical split down the center. Left half: warm, golden-toned Italian kitchen with fresh pasta and rustic wooden table, slightly out of focus, inviting. Right half: the subject (American man, mid-30s) standing confidently in a modern setting with a subtle blue-grey city background. The split should feel like a before-and-after contrast. Clean, cinematic, high contrast. DO NOT include any text, logos, watermarks, or overlays. 16:9 aspect ratio.
"""

Thumbnail C: Text-Free Pure Visual
Layout: Text-Free
Text overlay (add manually): none
Emotion: Quiet determination
Visual: Greg looking directly into camera, serious but calm, with a faint background that blends Italian architecture on one side and Chinese skyline on the other. Purely visual, no text.
Why: Forces the title to carry the full verbal hook. The contrast in the background lets curious viewers lean in.

AI Prompt (ChatGPT / Gemini):
"""
Use the uploaded reference photo for the subject's face, hair, and skin tone. Preserve their likeness accurately. Create a YouTube thumbnail of an American man looking directly into the camera with calm, quiet confidence. Behind him, a seamlessly blended background: on the left, warm amber tones suggesting Italian architecture; on the right, cool blue-grey tones with soft city lights suggesting a Chinese skyline. Bokeh background, cinematic portrait lighting, sharp focus on the face. DO NOT include any text, logos, watermarks, or overlays. 16:9 aspect ratio.
"""

Best pairing: Title 1 + Thumbnail A because the split decision energy in the face matches the "chose her over Rome" story immediately. Thumbnail B is the strongest visual but requires more context. Thumbnail A works faster at scroll speed.

---

Title 2: "SEO Agencies Are Dying. His Survived." (Score: 4/5)

Formula: Contrarian Statement
Strangers: Pass | Curiosity: Pass | Cozy: Pass | Bread: Pass | Specific: Pass

Note: Direct, specific, creates tension between the claim and the outcome. Optimized for strangers who have any interest in digital business survival.

Thumbnail A: Number + Face
Layout: Number + Face
Text overlay (add manually): "500 CLIENTS"
Emotion: Confident, weathered
Visual: Greg looking directly at camera, calm but serious. "500 CLIENTS" in bold text beside or below face. Clean background.
Why: The number provides the evidence for survival. Strangers immediately understand the scale.

AI Prompt (ChatGPT / Gemini):
"""
Use the uploaded reference photo for the subject's face, hair, and skin tone. Preserve their likeness accurately. Create a YouTube thumbnail of a confident American man in his mid-30s looking directly at the camera with a calm, composed expression. He looks like someone who has been through something and is still standing. Clean, minimal background with a slight gradient from dark grey to charcoal. Portrait orientation within a 16:9 frame, positioned slightly left of center to leave space for text overlay on the right. Sharp lighting, high contrast. DO NOT include any text, logos, watermarks, or overlays. 16:9 aspect ratio.
"""

Thumbnail B: Before-After Split
Layout: Before-After Split
Text overlay (add manually): "DEAD vs ALIVE"
Emotion: Contrast between collapse and survival
Visual: Left side: dark, faded imagery suggesting a closed business (empty office, laptop closed, dark lighting). Right side: Greg looking forward, clean and lit, suggesting continuity.
Why: Visually dramatizes the survival story without explaining it. "DEAD vs ALIVE" is stark and specific.

AI Prompt (ChatGPT / Gemini):
"""
Use the uploaded reference photo for the subject's face, hair, and skin tone. Preserve their likeness accurately. Create a YouTube thumbnail with a vertical split. Left half: a dark, dim shot of a closed laptop on an empty desk with a wilting plant and dim light, conveying business failure and abandonment. Right half: the subject (American man) standing upright with direct eye contact and clean lighting, looking forward with composed confidence. Cinematic split composition, high contrast, slightly desaturated left side and warmer right side. DO NOT include any text, logos, watermarks, or overlays. 16:9 aspect ratio.
"""

Thumbnail C: Object + Intrigue
Layout: Object + Intrigue
Text overlay (add manually): "STILL STANDING"
Emotion: Quiet resilience
Visual: An SEO-related visual element (a graph, a search results page printed on paper) with a red X over it, next to Greg's face looking unaffected.
Why: Combines the industry collapse (object) with the survival (Greg's expression). "STILL STANDING" confirms the title's claim visually.

AI Prompt (ChatGPT / Gemini):
"""
Use the uploaded reference photo for the subject's face, hair, and skin tone. Preserve their likeness accurately. Create a YouTube thumbnail showing the subject (American man) on the right half of the frame, looking at the camera with a steady, composed expression. On the left, a visual of a downward trending graph printed on crumpled paper, partially visible as if discarded. The overall mood is resilience in the face of decline. Clean background, high contrast lighting, cinematic color grading. DO NOT include any text, logos, watermarks, or overlays. 16:9 aspect ratio.
"""

Best pairing: Title 2 + Thumbnail A because the "500 CLIENTS" number is the most concrete proof of survival. Thumbnail B is visually stronger but may read as overly dramatic.

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Title 3: "What Happens When Your Industry Dies Overnight?" (Score: 3/5)

Formula: Question Hook
Strangers: Pass | Curiosity: Pass | Cozy: Pass | Bread: Pass | Specific: Fail (broad question, not specific enough to feel real)

Note: Works for broad audience. The specificity is weak. Useful as a test against Title 2 which covers the same ground with more conviction.

Thumbnail A: Face + Reaction
Layout: Face + Reaction
Text overlay (add manually): "OVERNIGHT"
Emotion: Shock / disbelief
Visual: Greg with open-mouthed, wide-eyed expression of genuine surprise. The word "OVERNIGHT" amplifies the time shock.
Why: The single word "OVERNIGHT" makes the time element visceral. Combined with the question title, the viewer wants to know what specifically happened.

AI Prompt (ChatGPT / Gemini):
"""
Use the uploaded reference photo for the subject's face, hair, and skin tone. Preserve their likeness accurately. Create a YouTube thumbnail of a man with an expression of genuine shock: eyes wide, mouth slightly open, eyebrows raised. As if he just received unexpected news. Clean dark background. Close-up portrait crop, sharp focus on the face. High contrast studio-style lighting. DO NOT include any text, logos, watermarks, or overlays. 16:9 aspect ratio.
"""

Thumbnail B: Object + Intrigue
Layout: Object + Intrigue
Text overlay (add manually): "2024"
Emotion: Disorientation
Visual: A laptop screen showing a search results page with the content faded or blurred out, implying disappearance. Greg visible in the background, out of focus, hands on head.
Why: The "2024" date makes it feel like a real event that happened, not a hypothetical. The blurred screen suggests content disappearing.

AI Prompt (ChatGPT / Gemini):
"""
Use the uploaded reference photo for the subject's face, hair, and skin tone. Preserve their likeness accurately. Create a YouTube thumbnail featuring an open laptop in the foreground with its screen glowing but displaying only white emptiness or faded grey content, suggesting information disappearing. In the background, softly out of focus, the subject (American man) is visible with hands raised to his temples in a posture of disbelief. Moody, slightly dark lighting. Cinematic depth of field. DO NOT include any text, logos, watermarks, or overlays. 16:9 aspect ratio.
"""

Thumbnail C: Text-Free
Layout: Text-Free
Text overlay (add manually): none
Emotion: Aftermath
Visual: Greg in a quiet, dimly lit room looking at a screen that shows nothing useful. Melancholy tone. Lets the question title do all the work.
Why: The visual emptiness complements the "what happens" question. Viewer fills in the gap.

AI Prompt (ChatGPT / Gemini):
"""
Use the uploaded reference photo for the subject's face, hair, and skin tone. Preserve their likeness accurately. Create a YouTube thumbnail of a man sitting alone in a dim room, the glow of a laptop or monitor illuminating his face from below. His expression is contemplative and slightly troubled, not panicked, but clearly processing something difficult. Moody, cinematic lighting. Clean background. DO NOT include any text, logos, watermarks, or overlays. 16:9 aspect ratio.
"""

Best pairing: Title 3 + Thumbnail A because the shock expression directly answers the question title with body language rather than information.

---

Title 4: "11 Years in China, 500 Clients, Zero Paid Links" (Score: 5/5) <- RECOMMENDED

Formula: Number + Intrigue
Strangers: Pass | Curiosity: Pass | Cozy: Pass | Bread: Pass | Specific: Pass

Note: Three specific facts, each raising its own question. "Zero Paid Links" is the most surprising element for anyone in digital marketing. The number combination is highly concrete. This is the strongest title for both SEO-curious and general audiences.

Thumbnail A: Number + Face
Layout: Number + Face
Text overlay (add manually): "ZERO PAID LINKS"
Emotion: Confident, assured
Visual: Greg looking directly at camera, confident posture, slight smile. "ZERO PAID LINKS" as the contrast element. The claim is the curiosity.
Why: "Zero Paid Links" is the element that creates the gap. SEO people think it is impossible. Non-SEO people wonder why it matters. Both click.

AI Prompt (ChatGPT / Gemini):
"""
Use the uploaded reference photo for the subject's face, hair, and skin tone. Preserve their likeness accurately. Create a YouTube thumbnail of a confident American man looking directly into the camera with a calm, self-assured expression and a slight knowing smile. He should look like someone who has quietly beaten the odds. Positioned left of center in the frame, clean minimal background with dark gradient. Sharp portrait lighting, high contrast. DO NOT include any text, logos, watermarks, or overlays. 16:9 aspect ratio.
"""

Thumbnail B: Object + Intrigue
Layout: Object + Intrigue
Text overlay (add manually): "NO SHORTCUTS"
Emotion: Defiance
Visual: Greg with arms crossed, confident posture. Behind him, very faintly, a Chinese cityscape at night. "NO SHORTCUTS" reinforces the zero paid links claim.
Why: The crossed-arms posture signals conviction. The Chinese city in the background adds the location intrigue from the title.

AI Prompt (ChatGPT / Gemini):
"""
Use the uploaded reference photo for the subject's face, hair, and skin tone. Preserve their likeness accurately. Create a YouTube thumbnail of a confident American man with arms crossed, looking directly at the camera with a firm, slightly defiant expression. Behind him, a softly blurred Chinese cityscape at night with neon lights and tall modern buildings visible in the background. The subject is sharp and well-lit in the foreground. Cinematic portrait lighting. DO NOT include any text, logos, watermarks, or overlays. 16:9 aspect ratio.
"""

Thumbnail C: Face + Reaction
Layout: Face + Reaction
Text overlay (add manually): "500 CLIENTS"
Emotion: Pride without arrogance
Visual: Greg looking slightly off-camera, a small satisfied smile, as if recounting something he is genuinely proud of but would not brag about. Clean background.
Why: The quiet pride expression contrasts with the "500 clients" number in a way that creates intrigue. He does not look like a braggart, which makes the number more believable.

AI Prompt (ChatGPT / Gemini):
"""
Use the uploaded reference photo for the subject's face, hair, and skin tone. Preserve their likeness accurately. Create a YouTube thumbnail of a man with a small, genuine, quiet smile. He is looking slightly off-camera, not performing, just reflecting. The expression reads as someone recounting something they are privately proud of but would not boast about. Clean, neutral background. Warm portrait lighting, soft and natural. DO NOT include any text, logos, watermarks, or overlays. 16:9 aspect ratio.
"""

Best pairing: Title 4 + Thumbnail A because "Zero Paid Links" in the thumbnail directly adds specificity to the title's "500 clients" and "11 years" without overlapping. The viewer gets three data points between title and thumbnail and still has no idea how any of them fit together.

---

Title 5: "I Turned Down Rome. Here's What Happened." (Score: 3/5)

Formula: Rejection Story
Strangers: Pass | Curiosity: Pass | Cozy: Pass | Bread: Pass | Specific: Fail (slightly generic framing)

Note: The "Here's What Happened" is a well-worn format that still works. The Rome detail saves it from being too generic. Weaker than Title 1 which tells the same story with more emotional pull.

Thumbnail A: Face + Reaction
Layout: Face + Reaction
Text overlay (add manually): "FOR LOVE"
Emotion: Wistful / resolved
Visual: Greg looking at the camera with a half-smile, as if remembering a decision he is still glad he made. "FOR LOVE" adds the stakes without explaining everything.
Why: The title says he rejected something. The thumbnail adds the emotional reason. Together they create: he rejected Rome for love, and what happened next?

AI Prompt (ChatGPT / Gemini):
"""
Use the uploaded reference photo for the subject's face, hair, and skin tone. Preserve their likeness accurately. Create a YouTube thumbnail of a man with a warm, slightly wistful half-smile, looking directly at the camera. The expression reads as someone who made a decision long ago and is at peace with it. Clean background with soft warm lighting. Natural, unposed feel. DO NOT include any text, logos, watermarks, or overlays. 16:9 aspect ratio.
"""

Thumbnail B: Before-After Split
Layout: Before-After Split
Text overlay (add manually): "BEST DECISION"
Emotion: Contrast between regret-free decision and what was given up
Visual: Left side: Italian visual cue (warm, golden, romantic). Right side: Greg smiling, confident, present.
Why: Shows what was traded without telling the viewer why. "BEST DECISION" contradicts the "turned down" language in the title just enough.

AI Prompt (ChatGPT / Gemini):
"""
Use the uploaded reference photo for the subject's face, hair, and skin tone. Preserve their likeness accurately. Create a YouTube thumbnail with a vertical split. Left half: soft warm golden tones with blurred Italian architecture and a candlelit table, romantic and inviting. Right half: the subject (American man) with a confident, content smile, clean background, modern feel. The contrast should feel like past vs. present, not loss vs. gain. Cinematic, clean composition. DO NOT include any text, logos, watermarks, or overlays. 16:9 aspect ratio.
"""

Thumbnail C: Object + Intrigue
Layout: Object + Intrigue
Text overlay (add manually): "10 DAYS"
Emotion: Disbelief at the timeline
Visual: A plane ticket or departure board with two destinations visible (ROME / BEIJING), with Greg in the background, hands raised as if mid-explanation.
Why: The "10 DAYS" text element from the story makes the decision feel almost irrational. The dual destination visual shows the choice that was made.

AI Prompt (ChatGPT / Gemini):
"""
Use the uploaded reference photo for the subject's face, hair, and skin tone. Preserve their likeness accurately. Create a YouTube thumbnail featuring a vintage-style departure board in the foreground showing two destination slots, one warm-toned and one cool-toned, both blurred enough that no specific city names are readable. In the background, slightly out of focus, the subject (American man) stands looking at the board with an expression of contemplation. Cinematic airport or transit atmosphere. DO NOT include any text, logos, watermarks, or overlays. 16:9 aspect ratio.
"""

Best pairing: Title 5 + Thumbnail C because the departure board adds a visual dimension to the rejection story without giving away any of the outcome.

---

Title 6: "The Shortcut That Killed an Entire Industry" (Score: 4/5)

Formula: Warning / Trap
Strangers: Pass | Curiosity: Pass | Cozy: Pass | Bread: Pass | Specific: Pass

Note: "Killed an entire industry" is concrete enough to feel real. The viewer wants to know which industry and which shortcut. Works broadly because business people of all kinds understand industry disruption.

Thumbnail A: Face + Reaction
Layout: Face + Reaction
Text overlay (add manually): "OVERNIGHT"
Emotion: Grave warning
Visual: Greg with a serious, measured expression, leaning slightly toward camera. Not panicked, just factual about something serious.
Why: The serious expression paired with "OVERNIGHT" makes the viewer feel the timeline urgency without explaining the context.

AI Prompt (ChatGPT / Gemini):
"""
Use the uploaded reference photo for the subject's face, hair, and skin tone. Preserve their likeness accurately. Create a YouTube thumbnail of a man leaning slightly forward toward the camera with a serious, measured expression. The look is not fearful but is grave: someone delivering important information with calm authority. Clean dark background, dramatic lighting that emphasizes the face. DO NOT include any text, logos, watermarks, or overlays. 16:9 aspect ratio.
"""

Thumbnail B: Object + Intrigue
Layout: Object + Intrigue
Text overlay (add manually): "DEAD INDUSTRY"
Emotion: Aftermath
Visual: A search results page on a phone or laptop screen showing a Google results page, but the organic results are replaced by AI overview content, implying displacement. Greg visible alongside.
Why: Visual metaphor for the affiliate industry being replaced. "DEAD INDUSTRY" is blunt and specific.

AI Prompt (ChatGPT / Gemini):
"""
Use the uploaded reference photo for the subject's face, hair, and skin tone. Preserve their likeness accurately. Create a YouTube thumbnail showing a phone or laptop screen in the foreground with a glowing search results interface visible, but the screen content is progressively fading to white or static toward the bottom, suggesting content disappearing. Beside or behind the screen, the subject (American man) looks at it with a calm but serious expression. Dark background, tech-focused mood, cinematic lighting. DO NOT include any text, logos, watermarks, or overlays. 16:9 aspect ratio.
"""

Thumbnail C: Before-After Split
Layout: Before-After Split
Text overlay (add manually): "2024 CHANGED EVERYTHING"
Emotion: Before = thriving, After = silence
Visual: Left half shows a laptop with active content, bright screen, energy. Right half shows the same laptop, screen dark or faded, empty desk.
Why: The year specific overlay "2024 CHANGED EVERYTHING" makes the industry event feel historically real, not hypothetical.

AI Prompt (ChatGPT / Gemini):
"""
Create a YouTube thumbnail with a vertical split. Left half: a glowing laptop screen at a well-lit desk with visible web content and warm productive lighting, busy and active. Right half: the same desk composition but with the laptop screen dark or showing only a white screen, dim lighting, quiet and empty. The transition from left to right should feel like the moment a business stopped. Cinematic, high contrast, slightly desaturated right side. DO NOT include any text, logos, watermarks, or overlays. 16:9 aspect ratio.
"""

Best pairing: Title 6 + Thumbnail A because the calm-but-grave expression sells the "warning" tone of the title without requiring explanation. Thumbnail B is strong for SEO audiences but may confuse strangers.

---

Title 7: "The Business Nobody Expects to Come From China" (Score: 4/5)

Formula: Mystery / Curiosity
Strangers: Pass | Curiosity: Pass | Cozy: Pass | Bread: Pass | Specific: Fail (slightly vague on "business")

Note: "Nobody expects" creates the gap. China is unexpected. Works well because the viewer assumes a China business story means manufacturing or tech, not a Western SEO agency.

Thumbnail A: Face + Reaction
Layout: Face + Reaction
Text overlay (add manually): "HEFEI, CHINA"
Emotion: Calm pride in an unexpected place
Visual: Greg with a relaxed, quiet confidence. The location text "HEFEI, CHINA" is the dissonance element (a city nobody outside China knows, not Beijing or Shanghai).
Why: Strangers know Beijing and Shanghai. "Hefei, China" signals something more unusual than expected. The viewer wants to know what this business is and why it exists there.

AI Prompt (ChatGPT / Gemini):
"""
Use the uploaded reference photo for the subject's face, hair, and skin tone. Preserve their likeness accurately. Create a YouTube thumbnail of a relaxed, confident American man looking slightly past the camera with quiet satisfaction. Behind him, very softly blurred, a modern Chinese city skyline with contemporary buildings and a slightly hazy atmosphere. The contrast between the Western face and the Eastern backdrop should feel natural, like someone who belongs in both worlds. Cinematic portrait lighting. DO NOT include any text, logos, watermarks, or overlays. 16:9 aspect ratio.
"""

Thumbnail B: Object + Intrigue
Layout: Object + Intrigue
Text overlay (add manually): "10M PEOPLE"
Emotion: Scale contrast
Visual: Greg in the left foreground, a blurred Chinese city in the background behind him. "10M PEOPLE" adds the scale that makes the viewer realize this is not a small city.
Why: Most Western viewers imagine Greg in a quiet town. 10M people reframes the scale of where this business was built.

AI Prompt (ChatGPT / Gemini):
"""
Use the uploaded reference photo for the subject's face, hair, and skin tone. Preserve their likeness accurately. Create a YouTube thumbnail with the subject (American man) positioned in the left foreground, looking directly at the camera with a calm, confident expression. Behind him, softly blurred, a dense, modern Chinese urban skyline with tall glass buildings and city activity suggesting a major metropolitan area. The contrast between foreground and background should emphasize scale. Cinematic depth of field. DO NOT include any text, logos, watermarks, or overlays. 16:9 aspect ratio.
"""

Thumbnail C: Text-Free
Layout: Text-Free
Text overlay (add manually): none
Emotion: Dislocation / intrigue
Visual: Greg standing in front of a clearly Chinese environment (street scene, signage blurred in background, urban density) looking at the camera with a quiet grin. Purely visual contrast between the Western subject and Eastern setting.
Why: The visual contrast alone creates the curiosity. Lets the title carry the full verbal hook.

AI Prompt (ChatGPT / Gemini):
"""
Use the uploaded reference photo for the subject's face, hair, and skin tone. Preserve their likeness accurately. Create a YouTube thumbnail of an American man standing in front of a clearly Chinese urban scene: soft-focus background showing Chinese-style signage, red lanterns, or dense urban streetscape with Chinese architectural elements. The subject is sharply lit in the foreground, smiling slightly with easy confidence, as if completely at home in an unexpected place. Cinematic depth of field, warm city light. DO NOT include any text, logos, watermarks, or overlays. 16:9 aspect ratio.
"""

Best pairing: Title 7 + Thumbnail B because "10M PEOPLE" reframes viewer expectations about where this story takes place, and Greg's presence in front of an unmistakably Chinese city confirms the visual contrast.

---

Title 8: "How Reddit Accidentally Killed Affiliate Marketing" (Score: 5/5) <- RECOMMENDED

Formula: Bold Claim
Strangers: Pass | Curiosity: Pass | Cozy: Pass | Bread: Pass | Specific: Pass

Note: Specific, concrete, and makes a bold attribution claim. "Accidentally" is the key word. It implies the story is more interesting than a deliberate move. Works for business, marketing, and tech audiences broadly.

Thumbnail A: Face + Reaction
Layout: Face + Reaction
Text overlay (add manually): "ENTIRE INDUSTRY GONE"
Emotion: Disbelief tinged with dark humor
Visual: Greg with a slight incredulous look, half between "I cannot believe that happened" and "and yet, here we are." Clean background.
Why: The combination of the bold claim in the title and the "entire industry gone" confirmation in the thumbnail creates a powerful curiosity gap. The viewer needs to understand how a social media platform killed an industry.

AI Prompt (ChatGPT / Gemini):
"""
Use the uploaded reference photo for the subject's face, hair, and skin tone. Preserve their likeness accurately. Create a YouTube thumbnail of a man with a slightly incredulous expression, eyebrows raised, corners of his mouth pulled down in a "can you believe that?" expression. The look is somewhere between disbelief and dark amusement. Clean dark background, sharp portrait lighting. DO NOT include any text, logos, watermarks, or overlays. 16:9 aspect ratio.
"""

Thumbnail B: Object + Intrigue
Layout: Object + Intrigue
Text overlay (add manually): "GOOGLE + REDDIT"
Emotion: Stakes of a corporate deal
Visual: Two overlapping corporate-style logos, stylized (not actual logos), suggesting a partnership. Greg visible to the side looking unimpressed. The deal imagery contrasts with the destruction the title implies.
Why: Shows the mechanism (the deal) without explaining the consequence. Adds visual evidence for the bold claim.

AI Prompt (ChatGPT / Gemini):
"""
Create a YouTube thumbnail showing two abstract circular brand symbols (not actual logos) overlapping in the center, one representing a major search engine (blue/white color scheme) and one representing a social platform (orange/white color scheme). The overlap suggests a deal or partnership. Beside the overlapping symbols, the subject (American man) stands with a skeptical, unimpressed expression looking at the symbols. Clean background, business-tone color palette. DO NOT include any text, logos, watermarks, or overlays. 16:9 aspect ratio.
"""

Thumbnail C: Before-After Split
Layout: Before-After Split
Text overlay (add manually): "THEN vs NOW"
Emotion: Industry collapse contrast
Visual: Left side: A thriving affiliate-style website scene, laptop with graphs going up. Right side: Dark screen, empty chair, same desk composition.
Why: The split shows the before-and-after of the industry collapse. "THEN vs NOW" is specific without naming the industry, maintaining the curiosity gap.

AI Prompt (ChatGPT / Gemini):
"""
Create a YouTube thumbnail with a vertical split. Left half: a busy, productive desk scene with a glowing laptop showing upward trending graphs, good lighting, a coffee cup, and an active workspace. Right half: the exact same desk, but abandoned: laptop closed or dark, no coffee, dim light, empty chair in background. The visual transition from left to right should feel like a business that thrived and then went silent. Cinematic, high contrast, desaturated right side. DO NOT include any text, logos, watermarks, or overlays. 16:9 aspect ratio.
"""

Best pairing: Title 8 + Thumbnail A because the incredulous expression matches "accidentally" in the title. The viewer sees the disbelief on Greg's face and needs to understand the cause.

---

Title 9: "I Built This in China. Nobody Believed Me." (Score: 3/5)

Formula: Confession / Honesty
Strangers: Pass | Curiosity: Pass | Cozy: Pass | Bread: Fail (slightly niche, depends on "China" as hook)
Specific: Fail (vague "this")

Note: The honesty framing works but "this" weakens it. "Nobody believed me" is strong. The China dissonance is the real hook. Weaker than Title 7 which covers similar territory more specifically.

Thumbnail A: Face + Reaction
Layout: Face + Reaction
Text overlay (add manually): "STILL RUNNING"
Emotion: Quiet defiance
Visual: Greg looking directly at camera with a composed, slightly defiant expression. The "STILL RUNNING" suggests he has survived something people said was impossible.
Why: "Nobody believed me" in the title paired with "Still Running" in the thumbnail creates a timeline of doubt and persistence.

AI Prompt (ChatGPT / Gemini):
"""
Use the uploaded reference photo for the subject's face, hair, and skin tone. Preserve their likeness accurately. Create a YouTube thumbnail of a man looking directly into the camera with a quiet, composed, slightly defiant expression. Not aggressive, but the look of someone who proved a point without needing to announce it. Clean dark background. Dramatic, sharp portrait lighting. DO NOT include any text, logos, watermarks, or overlays. 16:9 aspect ratio.
"""

Thumbnail B: Object + Intrigue
Layout: Object + Intrigue
Text overlay (add manually): "11 YEARS"
Emotion: Longevity against odds
Visual: Greg alongside a visual cue for China (a red lantern, city skyline, or subtle architecture). "11 YEARS" adds the timeline that makes "nobody believed me" feel historically validated.
Why: The duration "11 YEARS" confirms the confession is backed by actual experience. It answers "how long?" before the viewer even asks.

AI Prompt (ChatGPT / Gemini):
"""
Use the uploaded reference photo for the subject's face, hair, and skin tone. Preserve their likeness accurately. Create a YouTube thumbnail of an American man in his mid-30s positioned left of center, looking directly at the camera. On the right side, softly blurred, a traditional red Chinese lantern or a faint glimpse of a Chinese cityscape provides cultural context without being distracting. The subject's expression is calm and grounded. Warm cinematic lighting. DO NOT include any text, logos, watermarks, or overlays. 16:9 aspect ratio.
"""

Thumbnail C: Text-Free
Layout: Text-Free
Text overlay (add manually): none
Emotion: The face tells the story
Visual: Greg in a candid-style close-up, slightly off-guard, genuine. Let the title carry the full narrative weight.
Why: For this title, a strong natural expression from Greg does more work than any visual addition. The confession frame needs authenticity, not decoration.

AI Prompt (ChatGPT / Gemini):
"""
Use the uploaded reference photo for the subject's face, hair, and skin tone. Preserve their likeness accurately. Create a YouTube thumbnail of a close-up portrait of a man with a genuine, unguarded expression, as if caught mid-thought or mid-story. Not posed. Not performing. Just present and real. Warm natural lighting, slightly imperfect in a human way. Clean or slightly blurred neutral background. DO NOT include any text, logos, watermarks, or overlays. 16:9 aspect ratio.
"""

Best pairing: Title 9 + Thumbnail B because "11 YEARS" provides the evidence for the "nobody believed me" claim in the title while the Chinese lantern confirms the location without explanation.

---

Title 10: "The Farm Worker Who Accidentally Built an SEO Empire" (Score: 4/5)

Formula: Specificity + Curiosity
Strangers: Pass | Curiosity: Pass | Cozy: Pass | Bread: Pass | Specific: Pass

Note: "Farm worker" is concrete and unexpected. "Accidentally" is the curiosity word. "SEO Empire" might touch banned hype territory; consider "SEO Agency" if stricter. The contrast between farm worker and SEO is the full hook.

Thumbnail A: Before-After Split
Layout: Before-After Split
Text overlay (add manually): "FARM TO AGENCY"
Emotion: Transformation without explanation
Visual: Left side: Agricultural setting, soil, hands in dirt, outdoor work. Right side: Greg at a desk or in a professional setting looking confident.
Why: The visual transformation makes the title concrete. "FARM TO AGENCY" is a compressed version of the journey that works on its own.

AI Prompt (ChatGPT / Gemini):
"""
Use the uploaded reference photo for the subject's face, hair, and skin tone. Preserve their likeness accurately. Create a YouTube thumbnail with a vertical split. Left half: hands in dark agricultural soil, green organic farm setting, natural outdoor light, no faces visible. Right half: the subject (American man) seated at a clean, modern work setup, looking directly at the camera with a composed, professional expression. The transition from left to right should feel like a genuine life change. Cinematic color contrast: warm earthy tones left, cooler professional tones right. DO NOT include any text, logos, watermarks, or overlays. 16:9 aspect ratio.
"""

Thumbnail B: Number + Face
Layout: Number + Face
Text overlay (add manually): "7 YEARS ON FARMS"
Emotion: Contrast between past and present
Visual: Greg looking at camera, confident. "7 YEARS ON FARMS" is the contrast element that makes the SEO story unexpected.
Why: The specific number "7 years" makes the background real. Viewer immediately wants to know how you go from 7 years on farms to SEO.

AI Prompt (ChatGPT / Gemini):
"""
Use the uploaded reference photo for the subject's face, hair, and skin tone. Preserve their likeness accurately. Create a YouTube thumbnail of a confident man looking directly into the camera with a calm, open expression. He should look approachable and genuine, not corporate. Positioned slightly left of center in the frame. Clean, neutral background. Warm portrait lighting. DO NOT include any text, logos, watermarks, or overlays. 16:9 aspect ratio.
"""

Thumbnail C: Face + Reaction
Layout: Face + Reaction
Text overlay (add manually): "ZERO PLAN"
Emotion: Bemused self-awareness
Visual: Greg with a slight grin and a look of "I genuinely did not plan any of this." The "ZERO PLAN" text confirms the "accidentally" element of the title.
Why: The accidental nature of the journey is the hook. "Zero Plan" confirms it visually.

AI Prompt (ChatGPT / Gemini):
"""
Use the uploaded reference photo for the subject's face, hair, and skin tone. Preserve their likeness accurately. Create a YouTube thumbnail of a man with a slightly bemused, self-aware grin, as if recounting a story he still finds a little absurd. Not overly comedic, just genuinely amused at his own life. Clean background, warm lighting, natural expression. DO NOT include any text, logos, watermarks, or overlays. 16:9 aspect ratio.
"""

Best pairing: Title 10 + Thumbnail A because the before-after visual is the most honest representation of the "farm worker to agency" journey. The transformation is visual without being explained.

---

Top 3 Recommended Pairings

1. Title 4 + Thumbnail A: "11 Years in China, 500 Clients, Zero Paid Links" + shocked/confident face with "ZERO PAID LINKS" overlay
This combination works for the broadest audience. Three specific numbers in the title create immediate curiosity. "Zero Paid Links" in the thumbnail is the most surprising of the three facts and opens the biggest gap. Works for strangers with no SEO knowledge (they are curious about the China story and the numbers) and SEO-aware viewers (they are curious how zero paid links led to 500 clients).

2. Title 8 + Thumbnail A: "How Reddit Accidentally Killed Affiliate Marketing" + incredulous expression with "ENTIRE INDUSTRY GONE" overlay
Strongest for a business and digital marketing audience. Concrete claim, specific named platform, and the word "accidentally" creates narrative tension. The disbelief expression in the thumbnail confirms the viewer's instinct that this is a real and surprising story.

3. Title 1 + Thumbnail A: "He Chose Her Over Rome. Then Built This." + conflicted expression with "ROME vs BEIJING" overlay
Best for general lifestyle and entrepreneurship audiences. The romantic decision is the most emotionally universal hook in the episode. Works as an entry point for viewers who would not otherwise click on an SEO episode.

---

Hook Options (First 3-10 Seconds)

Note: Reference image needed: Greg Heilers. Upload their headshot to ChatGPT/Gemini alongside thumbnail prompts.

Hook 1: Contradiction Promise
Type: Contradiction
Amplifier: Contradict expectations

"He had the internship booked. The city picked. The plan set. Then he met someone. Ten days later, he scrapped all of it. That single decision set off a chain of events that led him to build a 500-client business in one of the last places anyone expected. That is what this conversation is about."

Hook 2: Consequences
Type: Consequences
Amplifier: Scare with consequences

"In 2024, a business deal between two companies that most people had never heard of deleted an entire industry overnight. Not hurt it. Deleted it. Greg Heilers was inside that industry when it happened. He is still standing. In this conversation, he explains how, and what he would do if it happened again tomorrow."

Hook 3: Results + Authority
Type: Results tease + Authority
Amplifier: Reveal deeper credentials than expected

"Greg Heilers spent seven years on organic farms across four continents before he ever touched a keyboard professionally. He has now been in China for eleven years. He has served over 500 clients. He has never bought a single link. And he is going to tell you exactly what happens when the business model you built over a decade gets wiped out in six months."

---

Testing Notes

Titles 4 and 8 are the clearest candidates for head-to-head testing. Both score 5/5 but serve slightly different audiences. Title 4 leads with the life story; Title 8 leads with the industry event.
Title 1 is the emotional entry point. Use as a test against Title 4 to determine whether the romantic hook or the numbers hook performs better with Gabe's current audience.
Thumbnail text overlays should be tested in bold, high-contrast sans-serif fonts. White text on dark elements, or dark text on light backgrounds. Never gradient text.
The "10 DAYS" overlay appears in multiple concepts because it is one of the most surprising details in the episode. Consider A/B testing a thumbnail that leads with it prominently.
Text-free thumbnails (C options for Titles 1 and 7) are worth testing if Gabe's channel has enough CTR data to measure against text-included versions.

Next Steps

[ ] Select one of the three recommended pairings as the primary launch packaging
[ ] Upload Greg's headshot reference to ChatGPT or Gemini alongside the selected AI prompt
[ ] Generate thumbnail image using selected AI prompt, then assemble with text overlay in Canva or Figma
[ ] Set up YouTube title testing with the primary title plus one alternative (Title 1 or Title 8 as backup)
[ ] Add episode description (short version) to all podcast platforms (Spotify, Apple Podcasts, etc.)
[ ] Use full YouTube description with timestamps for the YouTube upload
[ ] Select hook option and confirm it is the actual first 3-10 seconds of the episode (no greeting before it)
[ ] Confirm episode thumbnail is readable at 120px width before finalizing

Transcript

Full transcript

---
{
"episode_id": "c14100cd-5ed2-4860-83f1-e90801c23f25",
"episode_number": 153,
"title": "#153 - From Organic Farming to SEO: Greg Heilers Impressive Journey",
"publish_date": "2026-04-07",
"guest": "Greg Heilers"
}
---

# Episode Transcript: Greg Heilers (Jolly SEO)

Choosing Beijing over Rome

Gabe Marusca: Greg, you spent nearly seven years working on organic farms and conservation projects like Palestine, Scotland, Guatemala, France, and you are on track for a culinary internship in Rome. Then you choose Beijing. How'd that come?

Greg Heilers: Uh, my now wife and I crossed paths in Guatemala in a city called Shayla. Beautiful place. We couldn't separate, she had to go back to Beijing and I was supposed to go to Rome for a culinary internship, and I just rejected that. Chose Beijing. So here we are in her hometown in China, in Jfe.

Gabe Marusca: Wow. That's one of those moments, right? When you better half cross your path and you know exactly what you're about to do. Right?

Greg Heilers: tough call though, to be honest, in the moment it, not in hindsight, but, I. I was struggling because it was very new. the opportunity just was, we were together for 10 days and then I, I thought I have to roll the dice and, and see what will come of it.

Gabe Marusca: I can imagine it wasn't a easy choice, especially like when you met someone for just a couple of days and basically you changed your whole life. what was going through your head in that moment?

Leaving the Nomad Life

Greg Heilers: In the house I was living in, there was a similar example. There was a British guy and a Korean woman. They split and the British guy turned to me and said, you know, if it's meant to be, she will wait. And he saw what was happening with me and this lovely Chinese lady and he said, if it's meant to be shall wait, you should go to Italy.

And I looked at him and I thought I wasn't asking for his advice, and I don't want to be like this guy. He was about 10 years older than me and still living the life I had been living, which wasn't bad. It was wonderful. I just wanted to move on to, I didn't know what the next phase would look like, but I realized.

Gabe Marusca: When I saw it and when I saw the contrast. And so it was hard to move across the Pacific Ocean to a very big city, start working digitally instead of in the dirt. Interesting. And, what exactly from that person's life you didn't like and when and what was your like back then?

Greg Heilers: Yeah, my life back then was, I was living on a, a few hundred dollars a month, almost like you call them a backpacker. I was what I call a volunt tourist. So not these programs where you pay thousands of dollars for 10 days and plant a tree or something, but. You work in exchange for, somewhere to sleep and, and maybe some food.

And that's what I did. And when I ran outta money, I'd work a small job and then go back to another place, until my money ran out. And, and this person was doing the same, they were just 10 years ahead of me. and I thought. It just looked tiring. I just felt tired af after a certain point. I just was getting worn out.

By the short-term relationships, there wasn't a, a deep connection because you're always picking up and going to a new place e exciting until it becomes more of the same.

Gabe Marusca: Man, I can quite recently do that. Uh. As, you know, like for, for the past six, seven years, I've been a nomad. And while it's fantastic to move across places and meet new people and immerse yourself in cultures, at some point it, it, it's get back to you. Like, and, and it's, it's worrying you down. It's tiring.

Switching time zones. Like Navi not having that place you can call home and, Yeah, I, I, I truly can resonate and I, I bet those that are in our situation at nomads or moving fast, even if, you know, don't move fast, how fast you, you are moving, in terms of locations.

Greg Heilers: These days about once a year or two, but my children are. In their middle of their childhood now. And so it's coming to an end for us. we are pretty sure the next spot is going to be for 10 years until they move out, because we always thought. Children deserve if we can afford it.

Stability. and so that's, that's what we'll do. But I, I didn't mean to pick a sore spot for you 'cause I'm sympathetic. All right. I really know. It's, it's still in our life today, right? We are here for two years and you meet lovely people, but you know in the back of your mind that they're going back to their home and we're going somewhere else.

And so there's something blocking a deeper connection, I think sometimes.

Gabe Marusca: And that that's I think, one of the hardest thing, at least for me too. Move from one place where you already kind of build a deeper connection with someone and you can already start to call them friends and like sharing things and so on. And after that you move on. And of course you live in a connected world, but in the same time, you like the same when you're face-to-face and interact.

Culture Shock in China

Gabe Marusca: And speaking of interactions, you literally move in a, in a culture that it's so different and. Basically starting everything from scratch. How was the transition to Beijing?

Greg Heilers: I, I told my then girlfriend, now wife, I said, no problem. Where I grew up in Los Angeles, there's air pollution. I will, I'll fit right in. I had no idea when you landed, you could, I can still taste it as a memory. it's, it was very different for me. And to be honest, I, I will always be a foreigner here.

I, I still feel different. I look different. I live in a smaller city now, so people literally when I walk by say like, whoa, there's a foreigner, to each other in their conversation. Right? so it's, it's still different, but I'm very grateful because. I didn't have the same opportunities I had had and I had to find a new opportunity.

And that's actually what led me to digital work was that moment I didn't work online at all until I arrived in China.

And how did that happen? Because I always found fascinating how people go from a totally different industry or activity to start doing something online. Yeah, for me. The first thing I did was use English, and then I learned quickly. I'm not a very good teacher. I, I, I don't, I like doing it informally, but not in front of a classroom. So that job was out, and I found that many companies were good at translating from Mandarin to English, but they needed a native speaker on the backend.

That's where I found my little space online initially was I was the editor, and it wasn't just language, it was actually cultural translation because if anyone listening works in business, you know, even in business cultures to fit together, we have to kind of speak each other's cultural language as well.

So it was like a localization kind of, role that I started with.

Gabe Marusca: And especially in that like cultural nuances can play a huge role and.

Falling into SEO

Gabe Marusca: Once you did that, how that led to SEO.

Greg Heilers: so in that time, I'm a freelancer and so it took me a while to understand, but really I was my own business owner and soon I, I, even though I didn't understand that yet. I started looking around and realizing my, let's say, getting a raise could happen as fast as I wanted, or getting a, a changing roles could happen as fast as I wanted.

So I realized, well, the writers seem to make more money and have more. Time to complete the work. The editors were always go, go, go. I need this by 6:00 PM kind of relationship with the client. So I switched to writing. And to be honest, at that time we were talking 10 years ago. There was, in the SEO industry, what we call content mill, low quality content.

It's just for Google. It's not really for the human, but I didn't understand that yet. I didn't understand my position. So I was writing these articles very fast. I'm a very fast typist, but I thought people were paying me because I'm just an amazing writer. The quality of my writing is so great. I thought soon I'm going to be a novelist or who knows what's next in my future.

But I didn't actually know that I was joining this SEO industry, that that was how I tiptoed into it without realizing it.

Gabe Marusca: It's such a common thing, right? When you, when you are natively good at something, you, we assume you know everything. But what was the reality like when, when you truly understood what SEO worlds mean, when you realize like, oh my God, I have so much to actually learn.

Greg Heilers: Yeah, It's something that I have problem solved by putting some blinders on almost, staying focused in just the, what we call outreach area or offsite area of S-E-O-S-E-O is a bit like a triangle. You can think of it. There's three main components. There's onsite words. architecture or technical, and then offsite.

And offsite we do by reaching out to other websites and trying to get them to link back to you or to talk about your brand. And that's how I managed to make a name for myself. We become an authority, right, in SEO by still just staying in the writing lane because. I'm actually not very technical.

There are some amazing SEO people talk about all these algorithmic and different like LLM based stuff and sure, I use AI and I can look at a script and try to figure out what's going wrong, but I can't write, I can't code, I can't, I can't do all these things that they do. And so that's for me how. Once I realized just how much there was, how I didn't get overwhelmed, I just, I just own up to it. I just say, I'm, I'm not the technical. SEO, I'm the offsite. SEO.

Gabe Marusca: And it's nice to, to find your path and your lane early on rather than like chasing all the trends or all the hype that is going on. And I know that as your world, it's kind of like that, right? Like you.

White Hat vs Black Hat

Gabe Marusca: Because you, you've do, you've been doing journalist outreach the hard way for years and like no paid links, no shortcuts, but the SEO industry is full of people cutting corners. What do your competitors do that drives you crazy?

Greg Heilers: for years I used to do what's called Stand against Marketing. So I used to say like, they do this, but we don't do that. Almost like we are better than. And I've come to realize, in our industry, we talk about black hat versus white. You can kind of interpret the meaning there, right?

Black, bad, white, good. It's in the name, it's there. I, I am searching for a better name for this reason because I'm realizing they are very ROI focused. So in a sense they are actually serving their clients very well. Uh, they're often serving themselves niche projects. So a lot of their tactics do drive me crazy because our clients are looking for a sustainable brand representation.

They need to keep their name in good standing with their customer base where we're long-term play, whereas their clients or their own projects don't mind if the project goes up in flames in three months as long as they made their money on that project. So. It's kind of apples and oranges is what I've come to realize.

And I used to get very perturbed like, how come they're allowed to do this and we can't. And I'm slowly coming to realize, you know, we are just taking different strategies. It's the same industry, but it's almost not in some ways we learn from each other, but, not a lot. Is applicable. The, the black hat guys are like, cool what you do, but it doesn't work.

It's too slow for me. The white hat guys are like, what you're doing is super interesting, but we're not allowed to touch it because of governance at our enterprise corporations,

Gabe Marusca: Interesting, but what's the real cost of that? Like what's the real cost of, people doing black hat

Greg Heilers: There are externalities, we are including me. as marketers, we, we are manipulating the consumers. And so sometimes, to be honest, I think about leaving SEO and then I realize, no, I need to stay for nothing else, just so I stay informed as a consumer so I know what is happening. So I think that if there is a cost, I think.

That could be included in the cost of, Hey, this is, I, I don't think that it's very different from other forms of marketing though, you know? so I, I think it just depends how far there's a spectrum here, how far you're willing to twist reality. And so, we, we have certain clients, for example, we don't serve certain niches.

We don't serve, we don't, don't put our efforts behind. but I, again. Who am I to say what's right or wrong? it, but I think if there's a cost, it's, it's that the consumer still in 2026 doesn't actually know why chat GPT is suggesting something to them. It, they don't realize that there's these guys in this SEO industry that are making catchy BT suggest something to them.

Gabe Marusca: That that's interesting.

AI Reshaping Search

Gabe Marusca: Because I, I'm not an expert by any means, but in theory, you can manipulate the response of AI with what you're actually, let's say, on your own website, write about your business or yourself and so on. but I like to ask you like how AI and everything that's happening right now, affecting SEO as a whole.

Greg Heilers: So we're at the start of 2026 right now when we're recording, because, and I say that the date, because it's relevant, 'cause it, it ebbs and flows. And if you'd asked me that in 2024, I would've said not much. But it turns out that, of course, like any business, we like the efficiency gain of ai, especially we do a lot of generating words.

We used to do it all through humans. Now we generate rough drafts through LLMs and have human editors. So we like the efficiency gain as a business. But as an SEO at first, it was really dangerous for us when Reddit. Announced its deal with Google. We, it actually killed an entire cottage industry called affiliates.

There were people who made websites, informational websites that didn't have real products or services. They just linked out to other people who had products or services. That was their business model. They got a commission off the great content. Google killed that entire industry, and that's not hyperbole.

Whole industry gone. All the traffic disappeared. Went to Reddit and then Reddit iPod two months later. So that was great. For Reddit's valuation. At IPO, Reddit has since done a deal with open ai and for those who are staying on the cutting edge, I was late, not me, but for those who are ahead of me, the light bulb went off. If Reddit is gonna be an open ai, where do the SEOs need to be putting content? So that's when you started to hear everyone talk about, man, Reddit is going to hell with all the AI slop because the SEOs are flooding. Reddit. Even we now offer Reddit brand mentions. We try to have our client not in a salesy promotional, but in a informational way, contribute.

Again, our clients, they care about their brand reputation. We gotta do it slow, steady. So it is influenced it in positive and negative. To sum it up, it's, and it's an ongoing influence and it won't be going away. We haven't decided what our new acronym is as an industry. Some people say GEO, generative Engine optimization.

Some people say a EO answer engine optimization. We don't actually know what to call it anymore, but. We do know it's SEO plus AI search. It's not just SEO anymore.

Gabe Marusca: Yeah, that's definitely an interesting time to be in. Industry because things are moving so fast and you need to always be up there like trying to understand exactly what's happening and how do you do that. Like, because being in marketing as well, I feel like sometimes overwhelmed, but all the things that are happening and that fear of missing out is, coming in and like, oh my God, like.

How I can be more efficient, how I can leverage this new technology or, or how I can do that and that, and in all honestly, that feels overwhelming. Like how do you deal with that?

Greg Heilers: Um, so same here. Uh, I'm, I'm not just a business owner, like many of us smaller businesses, I'm also the chief marketer at the company. So I, I hear you overwhelming. Try to be in all the channels at all the times. It's challenging, as the service provider, SEO for our clients. If we go back to when I said, whole industry died there, there are certain types of websites now that it's going to be a real uphill battle to get traffic from Google.

So we are having to advise interested clients to that. You may not want to pick this fight. You may want to find another channel to market in. And it's been interesting seeing SEOs realize that we are marketers. I think a lot of SEOs thought that we were not marketers, uh, that we were something separate from, but at the end of the day, we are, we are in the marketing budget literally on the, in, in most organizations, on their p and l.

So that has been interesting to see as well. Um, but there's an lot of opportunity, like you said, very challenging lot to learn. I'm still not the most technical guy out there. So that has been a learning curve. I, I really have had to do a lot of experiments and, and just get used to the fact that I am going to be using LLMs as part of my day to day.

so that, that was uncomfortable at first, but it's growing in comfort and just looking at the opportunity. You, you probably know the term like lux surface area. If, if we are not using. These tools and finding ways to be valuable to clients so that they can, in our, in our service, that means show up in these tools when people use them, then our luck surface area shrinks.

And by contrast, if we can understand how these tools work and understand how to seed the information going into them, then we have more luck, so to speak, because we have something to offer to clients and they will find us.

Gabe Marusca: And how do you.

Time Blocking for Building

Gabe Marusca: Like if, if someone in your industry is, look, is listening or watching us, how do you allocate time in your day to truly understand these tools, when you have kids as well and.

Greg Heilers: I am personally grappling with that question all the time, and I think if most business owners, kids or no kids, we are all because. You can work an unlimited amount of hours. It's like working at a company with, unlimited time off, right? You end up taking less time off, than you would. So, the way I personally, in this moment of life, I'm, I'm thinking of it as seasonal in that I'm striving to work an average number of hours per week in the course of a year, but I'm recognizing that.

Sometimes the company is, well, let's, let's say sometimes the company is doing awesome and it's more like hands off or it's doing so awesome that there's just more work to do and sometimes the company's not doing awesome and it's in a crisis and I need to be more present. So I personally am, I have more tactically, I have Wednesday morning set aside for my building time.

just, that's my time to try to build something, to scratch an itch. That's a repetitive task we are doing manually. and then I'm moving actually at the point of recording effective Monday, to not, not working in the company on Mondays and just seeing where that lets my head go. I don't know where that's gonna go.

I've done this in the past and it's been beneficial. And then I've gone through another season where I'm like. Who am I to think I can only work four days a week? Like I need to be working five days a week. What am I thinking? So it's really, for me at this point in my life, it's, it's like a seasonality to it and just recognizing sometimes I have time to experiment and sometimes I need to keep my head down and make the money to stay in business.

Gabe Marusca: Yeah. And that's the ups and downs of, of running a business, right? Like you do have the freedom to choose what you do, but sometimes that freedom is just by, I dunno, focusing more, it, it is still quote unquote freedom because you, you choose to work more. But you know why you do it, right? Rather than being forced by, by, I dunno, other people to, to do that.

And I, I love the, the idea of having a day dedicated to building because often if we. Try to find out some hours in our day to day to I know, catch up with something or build a new automation or like figure out how to solve a repeatable problem. We might not have that time, but you know exactly that Wednesday is for that.

It's much more easier, I assume, to, to actually do it. And I'll, I think I'll steal that idea from you.

Greg Heilers: Yeah. Hey, I, I'm still looking for a group of people who are actively. Building, I know that's not what you were planning to do, but in the AI and automation, I tried to form a little group that would meet right before that to kind of inspire me. it's easier to talk about it than do it. So the, the group, we didn't end up sticking together 'cause we all realized we were just talking, not doing.

But I'm still keeping that time in my calendar and I build something every week so that I'm making progress and learning. back to your point.

Gabe Marusca: I think that's a good idea because yeah, having that block time, it's, it's so valuable and, but what will surprise people? If they like listen to you and they're like, how it's actually behind the scenes to, to build Jo Aseo, how is, how that actually looks like, apart from the things that you just shared.

Greg Heilers: Yeah, I think from the outside in. I get really kind dms or even public comments from time to time about how we're crushing it. but just because I think anyone listening would be maybe like you and I, Gabe, where it's actually not an easy thing to be a business owner. In my experience, I'm, I don't consider myself a natural, I think I make. A lot of mistakes. I won't try to characterize it as more mistakes than I'm right or anything, but I'm, I make plenty of mistakes and by extension, so does my team. and so I think although we have a, I believe, a great reputation in our little space in our industry, and we are known for doing good quality work, I find myself occasionally on sales calls just reminding people like.

You know, we we're not perfect. Like we'll probably goof up and we'll need your feedback to point this out to us so that we can do a better job for you. Uh, so I think that it shouldn't be surprising, but I think some people actually would be surprised to know that.

Problem Solving Reality

Greg Heilers: Uh, I, I, in my meeting with my co-founder, Morgan, Taylor and Mu, who's our operator.

I'm reminding those two. 'cause we, we only really get to talk about problems, the three of us. So I just remind them, you know, like, Hey, just remember there's a lot of good stuff happening at the company. It's just, it's our job to fix the problems. And that's all we talk about together. so keep your spirits up because although our meetings can feel a little heavy, there's good things going on that everyone else sees.

So maybe that would surprise people that, that actually. Most of my week is spent dealing with problems at my company, right? It's, it's actually not super uplifting all the time. That's my job. I'm supposed to figure out how to get us out of the bottleneck of the day.

Gabe Marusca: Yeah, thank you so for being so open, because indeed like being an entrepreneur is not that. Perfect life in which you work from a laptop on the beach and you sip from a coconut and that's it. Uh, all the problem disappear. Reality is like you are there in the trenches and trying to, I don't know, put water on fire and try to survive sometimes, especially when the things are changing so fast and so on.

And, hmm. I appreciate when entrepreneurs are real and they don't just sugarcoat everything and they portrait themselves like, I dunno. I'm this perfect individual that is running this perfect business and so on. And, while things are imperfect, I will say it, even that I see it from outside, you're still crushing it.

Like you, you, you are there successful, like you're invited on stage to speak and an industry events and so on. That's, that's massive. And comparing to others that are probably out of business just in the last one, two years when ai, start to enter the space. So, kudos to you that you are still there and still doing what you do.

Greg Heilers: Yeah, I appreciate that. And I mean, it's something that I think if the SEO and we're, we're what you call an agency, right? So, in our little sphere of agencies. I think if, if people were looking forward, we, most of us, there was consensus that we were heading into an evolutionary bottleneck. And we, we obviously, by definition that means most of us wouldn't be going through and out the other side.

We were gonna really slim down the, the count. and I don't think we're, we're through it yet though, so I am still. Day to day at the start of 26. Trying to figure it out because I think we're in it and, and I'm, yeah, I'm, to your point, I'm grateful that we're not ha you know, we've, we've seen him over the past couple years.

We've seen multiple agencies post, like, I'm looking for places to refer my team too, 'cause we're shutting our doors. and or just quietly people disappeared that we're competitors. But I, I still don't count it as guaranteed that we make it out the other side. I believe we will, I think though that we have a lot of work ahead of us to stay relevant and it's, we already talked about some of what that looks like.

We're, we're gonna have to keep learning. as you said, I had the same dang. Archetype In my head it was gonna be me on the beach. Forget the laptop part though, Gabe. I was just gonna be on the beach. that's what was gonna be running a business look like. it's, it just hasn't happened yet.

Gabe Marusca: Yeah. And man, I still want to you, I, don't get me wrong. Like, I wish you to go through this, successfully to this, this transition, but I want to.

If The Business Vanished

Gabe Marusca: Have an existence or ex exercise of imagination with you, like knowing everything that you know right now. If let's say overnight Jo SEO is gone, what would be your next steps in order to rebuild and recover from that?

Greg Heilers: My life isn't as simple as it was 10 years ago. That's probably, the same for everyone. So, at least at this middle phase of life in Chinese, they have an expression that, above, we have old and below, we have young at this phase, so really kind of squeezed. so I, it feels like my options are.

Are limited. I think the biggest thing to do would be to cut my expenses as much as possible. and so for our family, that would probably be moving here to China. first of all, so location, choose your location very wisely. I think, where, where we live in the United States where we're going back to in the middle of the year, costs over two times, what it costs to live here.

And I don't say that. With pride. I say that with pain. That's what I, what I'm saying. it's, it just means I have to work that much harder, maybe not more, but harder to survive, and to try to quote unquote get ahead. Like as unfortunately adults, we all are responsible for our finances. So that's the first thing I would do.

And then professionally, I think about this all the time as business owners, well, not, not all the time, but. When, when I engage in this mental exercise with my buddy Morgan, who was 50 50 owner in the company, we just kind of we're proud of ourselves because we were two non-professional guys. You know, you heard about my background, he's had a different one, but equally non-professional, shall we call it, prior to this.

And we have a heck of a lot of skills that we've picked up through running a business. You know, every business owner is. the chief like sales person, the lead gen person, the marketer, the finance, the hr, the vendor procurement specialist, what, you know, you could go down the whole dang list. And so, uh, I used to be a writer.

And then over the years, I, I think what I would probably do is look for, commission only sales roles. At first, or, or if they want to gimme some money too, great. But I would just point out to 'em like, Hey, we've had over 500 clients. Like I, at least I can get clients. Like I know that part. So if you've got a good product like we had in this scenario, if we're gone, I can, I can sell.

and I used to find that sleazy, but now I'm realizing at least our style of selling. We, we don't push. We, we are like I am with you right now. We are just telling it what it is. If someone's not a good fit, we tell 'em like, this isn't the right thing right now. Like, you need to do this other thing.

But if it is a good fit, people gravitate to that. And so without trying to compliment myself anymore, I would just say like, I would take an inventory of what I can offer, and I know AI is here. I, I know the economy isn't so easy. That it'll, and people also will perceive the failed business as like, I don't, all my skills are in the poor category.

Right. It'll be hard probably to make the case that like, no, it was for this reason. Don't hire me for that though. I, I do actually suck at that thing, but I'm really, really good at sales, I promise. Like, so it'd be tough. But yeah, first of all, on the personal side, I try to get the expenses down as quickly as possible and then.

On the work side, I would do that.

China Opportunity And Safety

Greg Heilers: You know, Gabe, without talking too long, location really matters. In case anyone's considering this, my wife and I talk about this all the time. There's a ton of opportunity where I'm sitting right now. I live in the high tech district of Hofe, is our city name. It's not Shanghai or Beijing that you've heard of.

There's still 10 million people here, and Zoom is down the corner and they have the world's largest quantum supercomputer and they've made like a sun, like a literal SU, like a miniature. There's robots everywhere. Like there's a lot of, lot of opportunity.

Gabe Marusca: Yeah.

Greg Heilers: in where we live in America, or maybe not where in your town where the listener is, but you can go and find it.

Gabe Marusca: And I think that's powerful because we live in that world in which if our location, it's not giving us the opportunity or like we cannot, I dunno, expand and grow and learn or be surrounded by like you essentially technology opportunities big businesses, we can just move. And if anyone is listening to the podcast.

Has internet connection. So has the means of learning on how to do that either by like making more money to be able to move, or sometimes even by moving, you cut out the cost, like you mentioned, like comparing us costs with, living in China is so different, but obviously, the western world we say like, oh man, like China.

Like, isn't that a communist country? Like how is actually to live there and what are the misconception about it?

Greg Heilers: Yeah. I know Gabe, we said before we recorded, you haven't been to the us but I think a lot of people around the world have actually somewhat of an accurate perception of China or America, but not, not China. So your question's a great one because if someone listening hasn't been to America, Just to reaffirm for you, it is dangerous in American cities, especially the center, the city center in China, you, you never need to look over your shoulder. you, you, you never worry about going out at dark. It's extremely safe, is what I'm trying to say in America. My wife doesn't go out at night. Where we live is a general rule, and here.

Don't worry about her. If I can go to sleep, if she's out, because I just know it's China. in America we can't leave anything on the seat of our car 'cause someone will break our window and take it and it's like the thing didn't really matter, but now we got a broken window on a car to deal with.

That doesn't happen here. there's cameras everywhere. Americans would hate that loss of freedom, but. There's a different kind of freedom. It's all with, with the control that's in place. So, it, it is interesting being a foreigner in a place where it's a communist party in control, because initially I thought that that didn't matter to me, but after 11 years, I'm, I'm realizing like it, I do change what I say a little bit.

I do change how I act a little bit. it's not the same as living in America for sure. But, I would wholeheartedly recommend a visit if someone is China curious. it's not a communist. Economy. It's a very capitalist economy. There's a lot of activity happening because people are out there and hey, that's not all that life's about, but we are here on a business podcast.

So that's what we're talking about. There's, there really is so much more opportunity than where I live in America. It's, we choose to live there in America because it's so much slower and we choose to relax there. That's how different it is.

Gabe Marusca: Wow. And I didn't expect that because, most people, like my imagine about us is that is the hustle country, right? Like everyone is hustling to, to live the American dream, to work hard and so on. But, I didn't expect that China to be above that when it comes to like going out there. Like getting at what they want.

But what's fascinating, like I, I talked recently with a friend, um, that just visited China and they were like, similar to you. They were sharing the same thing. And the fact that people are living in the future there, like there is, they were like in the middle of an huge intersection and there wasn't freaking noise.

'cause 90 something percent of the cars were electric. I'm like, alright, that's, that's fascinating and probably that will as well solve the pollution, problem, and so on and so forth. But yeah, I, I had encouraged as well anyone that I haven't been there, it's on my bucket list actually, to visit China because, not just from, from that perspective of.

To see how is life there, but as well, I heard that there's amazing nature and so many things, to, to visit apart from that history and everything. And yeah, after we create this image that it's just based on media, based on, maybe some, some things that we saw online. But, reality is always different and it always, where you going? By yourself and actually experiment that place. You find out that it's so much different that you, you could imagine.

Greg Heilers: Yeah. I, I think, you heard it firsthand from a friend, so that's what it would take for me too. So I don't expect people to believe it. But your question was a great one. It was. What would you do if it, if it all fell apart and if you were focused on like, how do I, how do I make some opportunity happen for me and be somewhere interesting?

I think you would find that it's less of a uphill battle here, especially for foreigners. there's just, there was a period there five years ago where the Golden Age ended. The people who lived in China before me, the golden age was in like the two thousands. It's, I think another one again, right now in a different era that we're in, but I, I think it's a really interesting time to live in China.

Gabe Marusca: Nice, nice man. Make the most out of it.

Earned Media First Steps

Gabe Marusca: And, switching a bit back to SEO, like for someone listening and wants to build authority through earned media, what would be for them the the first step to take?

Greg Heilers: so if you're going to do what we do, and just so people understand, what we do is we reach out to websites and we try to contribute information that is so valuable that they want to. Either say our company name or give us what's called a back link. You know those links we click on, to go back to us and this is what we do for clients, but this is what you do for yourself.

I would start with something called featured.com, just like the word sounds featured.com. You can sign up for a free plan. You can pay for it. The only thing to be careful there is featured started creating their own websites so that there's more diversity of opportunities for different kinds of.

Small business owners, those aren't as valuable as the ones that are independent of the host. so look for that. But featured.com a a big proponent. We use it for like, kind of our entry level. so if you're entry level to this, I would look there, and then it, it goes up. There's five other, six other big names in the space that are these platforms, and the dynamic is in search engine optimization, SEO.

There's this thing called EEAT and one of those actually really two, are relevant to us. The, the people in this conversation right now is we are experts and we have authority, and so those websites, why do they want to publish your name and link back to you? They need you to satisfy EEAT for Google. They need to have experts that are third party experts to lend authority to their articles on their website.

So we're not even writing a whole article what's featured. You're writing three, four sentences. Sometimes it's that short. They provide the question, you answer the question. If you're useful to them, they'll put you in the article and then it gets more complicated from there. But if you're just starting out, it's a really nice value exchange and.

I can't recommend it enough. you don't need a service provider. You could do this in 15 minutes a day, just carve out a little bit on your calendar.

Gabe Marusca: Yeah, and it works. I, I actually stumbled upon the website last year, I think, and I managed to get my cell phone entrepreneur.com and a bunch of other websites and, it, it really works. Yeah.

EEAT Explained Simply

Gabe Marusca: And another thing is like, I want to ask, it's that acronym that you mentioned, EEAT, what that does it mean.

Greg Heilers: expertise. Experience, authorit and trustworthiness. So thi this EEAT is a component, just one. There's many thousands of ranking factors. And when I say ranking factors, they're, let's consider them bullet points in what Google.

It has what are called search engine algorithms. So it's like a formula that it looks at all these things, these factors that are all weighted differently. And EAT is, is actually, it's actually a bigger component, but it's just a component. It's not the sole thing. And so we're helping a website. When you contribute to entrepreneur, Google wants to see the entrepreneur.

Is being contributed to by real authorities. and that's what it's using to measure that. Entrepreneur isn't just kind of its own echo chamber just making stuff up. It has other people willing to put their name to it, and it's looking at you and seeing are you real or how much weight to give to this?

so that's EEAT

Gabe Marusca: So Craig, once someone did that, they took the first step into, they should look, on their website or on their social presence to be consistent on the way they present themself or that has no value to date.

Greg Heilers: I think it absolutely has a value. Having as a future guest, Jason Barnard, he and his agency, Cali Cube. I had him on the podcast and he was talking about it matters so much that every time he is a guest, for example, if he is a guest on your podcast, he would update his own about page on his website and.

Write out that he was a guest on your podcast and link back to your podcast. 'cause he wants there to be this reciprocal, uh, relationship so that Google can really form this. So, uh, I, I won't claim that I'm as strong at that. I think our messaging is not uniform on cross all the different channels. It's like. time we create a new channel, we update the messaging a little, but we don't go back and update the old channels. So I, I do think it's important. And I think one thing, for example, just a tiny example, when we do the type of work we do, we make sure that we know character for character, what the brand name should look like.

You, you might be surprised, but for example. Our brand name is Jolly Space, SEO, and it was on purpose. And it's still on purpose because one day we might need to be more than jolly, SEO. We are living in an era where pretty soon we can't just be SEOs, but most of our team. Types our name as jolly, SEO, no space.

And most people you'll find do that. And there's an argument that that's actually better for Google. 'cause the SEO separated is confusing. And we do this with clients all the time. They come in and they themselves have their brands written different ways. And so we have to clarify this with them, including on their LinkedIn profile.

'cause the, you use featured or one of the more sophisticated platforms out there. The first thing that the publisher does if they want to see is Gabriel Real, is they click on your LinkedIn profile. If you remember, you had to put a LinkedIn profile into Featured, so they will click on your LinkedIn profile and if you don't have the company listed that you put in your signature on featured that you really want them to link back to, it's a big red flag for them.

Like why? Why don't you wanna publicly say that you're part of this company that privately to me, you're telling me you're part of, it's just weird. So I, it's very important.

Gabe Marusca: Yeah, that's, that's very good to know. And, uh, man, it's so, I'm so grateful that I talked to you today and learned from you. And that's, uh. You share your story and you keep it real. So cannot thank you enough for that and do more of that because indeed people are all over the world searching for someone that it's actually not polished, not perfect, and I admire for that.

Admire for that.

Connect with Greg Heilers

Gabe Marusca: And please tell those listening where they can engage with you.

Greg Heilers: Oh, Gabe, it's awesome. I really appreciated the conversation and you should look up Gabe's episode on YouTube, on the Jolly SEO podcast. So that's where you can look us up, as well. Uh, that was really fun. Uh, I'm on LinkedIn, Greg Highler's, or you can look at jolly SE o.com. For now. Right. So I, I appreciate it, but I had a blast and thanks for letting me come on.

Gabe Marusca: Thank you, and that was Greg ERs. And if this conversation made you think differently about building something real in your life and without sacrificing the life you actually want to live and learning something about SEO, then please share it with someone who needs to hear it. And if these are your kind of conversations, you know what to do, subscribe to not miss the next one. I'm Gabe Marusca and here in the wild.